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Wikipedia talk:Policies and guidelines

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The project page associated with this talk page is an official policy on Wikipedia. Policies have wide acceptance among editors and are considered a standard for all users to follow. Before editing this page, please make sure that your revision reflects consensus. When in doubt, discuss on the talk page. Always remember to keep cool when editing. Changes to this page do not immediately change policy anyway, so don't panic.



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[edit] No further response?

With 2 people leaving the discussion, 1 person not responding to my challenge to their position, and 1 person basically agreeing (and the latter claiming to be an actual subject matter expert at that), I'll be re-inserting KC's changes within the next 24 hours, provided I hear nothing further.

I'm not really happy with how the dicussion turned out, but I guess one takes what one can get :-/

--Kim Bruning (talk) 11:15, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

I still disagree strongly with KC's assertion that "Proposals are not a very strong method for obtaining consensus for a change". I left the discussion because I became tired of his sarcastic rhetoric and his refusal to clarify his position, not because I changed my mind. Gandalf61 (talk) 11:38, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

(insert) I didn't add that. It was not my assertion, hence I could not clarify it beyond a guess at what the editor who did add it meant. And I have made no sarcastic edits to this talk page. KillerChihuahua?!?Advice 01:25, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

As you know, tone doesn't carry very well in writing. I don't know that KC was being sarcastic. To me, his tone sounded more pleading than anything else.
I understand that you believe that proposals may be a good method for obtaining change. However, the last time I did statistical analysis, I found that the propose-discuss-poll method did not have a stellar performance at all, especially not compared to other methods.
Of course, perhaps things have changed since I last did those statistics, or perhaps my analysis was flawed. Unfortunately, in the mean time, no one else appears to have repeated my analysis to check it, so the only data and analysis available are my own. :-(
I would very much like for someone to do an independent analysis so that we may compare.
--Kim Bruning (talk) 15:54, 1 July 2009 (UTC) see above sections for analysis links
I have not advocated "propose-discuss-poll" so that is a straw man. I do say that asserting "Proposals are not a very strong method for obtaining consensus for a change" in a section about the proposal stage for new policies and guidelines gives the impression that the proposal stage is unnecessary and indeed harmful - which is a very confusing and negative message for new readers. Since the majority of recent new policies have been through a proposal stage, it is also factually dubious. If you and KC mean something else by this statement - if there is some subtle nuance of wording or meaning that I have missed - then I think you need to reword your addition for greater clarity. Gandalf61 (talk) 16:40, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
Fair deal. Rewording for greater clarity is never a bad idea. We could put it that historically the first making a proposal path has not been successful. Would that cover your concerns for a large part?
For the current day state of the wiki: assuming you are correct, I'd be very interested to see the success rate for current proposal-stage policies, guidelines or essays. Another interesting statistic would be to see the duration of the discussion for such policies, guidelines or essays. Do you have these statistics on hand? If not, that's fine too, but in that case: on what data do you base your statement?
--Kim Bruning (talk) 18:20, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
A spot check of the newer policy documents (those started in the last 4 years, say) shows that most of them have gone through a proposal stage. Therefore, at the moment, the de facto process for developing a new policy document includes a proposal stage. The Policies and guidelines policy, like all policies, should aim to be descriptive, not prescriptive. Therefore any statement that implies that the proposal stage is unnecessary, harmful or denigrated should not be included, because it is at odds with current practice.
New policy proposals may indeed have a low success rate, and the discussion required to reach consensus may indeed be lengthy. These are both good features of the process. They mean that only the very best proposals achieve consensus and become policy. They protect Wikipedia from instruction creep. Wikipedia is not a bureaucracy, and reaching agreement on new policies should be difficult. Better ten good proposals fail than one bad proposal becomes policy.
My objection to ""Proposals are not a very strong method for obtaining consensus for a change" is that, in the context in which it was placed, it implies that there is currently a better method somewhere in Wikipedia for achieiving consensus on new policy documents, one that bypasses the proposal stage. That is simply not correct. If the assertion is not meant to carry this implication then it needs to be reworded. Gandalf61 (talk) 08:29, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
If you had said "last 1 or 2 years" for your spot check -well, I don't have data for that time period- so I would have conceded the point for now without question. However, your 4 year period overlaps my own previous research in 2007. Let's see what's up. Could you please point out which pages you looked at in your spot check?
As a partial answer to your last point: there are 3 methods to maintain policy listed on this page. The other two methods were rather more effective, IIRC. --Kim Bruning (talk) 01:14, 3 July 2009 (UTC) This is a partial answer, I will answer more of your points later
I agree that "Documenting actual good practices and seeking consensus that the documentation truly reflects them" is the most effective method. But where the documentation requires starting a new policy document, then this new policy document usually starts out as a proposal or goes through a proposal stage early in its lifecycle. "Proposal" does not necessarily mean "proposal of a change in practice". Let's continue discussion in the new thread that you started below. Gandalf61 (talk) 09:42, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
Historically, people have tended to stick a {{proposal}} on policy-like pages, whether the page was a proposal of change in practice or not. This practice has always seemed to be a bit of a silly reflex to me. I always removed such tags where possible. I'll continue below too. I think we're reaching common ground. :-) --Kim Bruning (talk) 14:37, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

[edit] changing a policy

When you obtain policy through source #1 (document existing practice), you first *act* , and once your way of acting is widely supported in the community (eg, has consensus), you modify policy to meet the way you acted. So for the method 1, my description is correct.

For source #2 (make a proposal), you must indeed first make a proposal and gain consensus through discussion.

These two methods are fundamentally different approaches. We're still discussing whether source 2 even works all that well, above. (some people seem to think it does these days, so I'd better at least listen to 'em ;-)). I do know that source 1 works, and you can often see many minor changes to policies accumulating over time through that method. :-) --Kim Bruning (talk) 01:42, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

I think there is some confusion here between "documenting actual good practice by writing a new policy proposal" and "proposing a change in practice and seeking consensus for implementation of that change". I agree that the second method seldom works. I maintain, however, that writing a new policy proposal is the de facto standard method of starting a new policy document to record actual practice. Recent policies that went through a proposal stage include WP:BLP, WP:PROXY, WP:GB, WP:LIBEL and WP:PROD. My objection to the assertion "Proposals are not a very strong method for obtaining consensus for a change" is that it implies to me that proposals are not the usual method of starting new policy documents, which is not correct. If "change" here actually means "change in Wikipedia practice", not "change in policy documentation" then that needs to be clarified by amending the wording of the statement. Gandalf61 (talk) 09:35, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
Documenting good practice by writing a policy proposal is a contradictio in terminis, or at best redundant. Either the practice is de facto policy, or it is not. There is no proposal to be made.
If you try to ask permission before doing something "propose a change in practice", 90% of the time, it ain't gonna happen, no matter how good the idea.
Looking at the policies you list:
  • WP:PROD, was more involved than you might think (see eg. : WP:XD)
  • WP:GB has rather obvious and large WP:CONEXCEPT components.
  • WP:PROXY links to wikien-l (originally a canonical source of policy, though less so today), dated 2004, and is outside your stated 4-year window besides.
  • WP:LIBEL does appear to have had a proposed tag on it, but documented what we decided to do as a reaction to the siegenthaler affair, if memory serves. The involvement of Jimmy Wales (consensus exceptions again) and links to wikien-l once again take this out of the realm of what I would call the proposed-policy process.
wait... that was all of them <blinks><looks puzzeled>
Okay, so to me the links you provide above do not represent policies that came about via what I understand to be the "policy proposal process". But you still list them. This suggests to me that we are talking about two very different concepts of what a proposal process actually is.
Now that is very interesting.
Could you explain your thoughts on your definition of the "policy proposal process", please? --Kim Bruning (talk) 10:59, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
A policy proposal is a proposed text for a new policy document that is tagged with Template:Proposed. The policy proposal process is described in the documentation of the template. All of the policy documents I mentioned were tagged with this template at an early stage in their lifecycle. What you fail to grasp is that a proposed policy document may be documenting actual current practice - it is still not an actual policy document until it has gained consensus. I am emphasising policy document here because you also seem to mixing up policy as practiced and policy as documented; policy as documented lags behind policy as practiced.
And if you want to continue a sensible adult discussion about this, then I suggest you drop the "wait... that was all of them" sarcasm and the juvenile "<blinks><looks puzzeled>" stuff - forget the rhetoric and just say what you mean in a straightforward way. Gandalf61 (talk) 12:19, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
So anything is a proposed policy, simply by the power of the {{proposed}}? As a thought experiment: What would happen if I alter that tag at WP:NPOV (and get reverted in under 1 second). Would that mean that NPOV has now followed the proposal process? I suppose that that can't be true. So where do you draw the line?
I'd like to understand what you mean by "policy as documented must gain consensus"; do you mean it must gain consensus anew? And by what mechanism?
I'm beginning to think there might be some measure of agreement between us, but that we are using different vocabularies to express ourselves.--Kim Bruning (talk) 14:34, 3 July 2009 (UTC) Note that sarcasm does not carry over the internet, which is why I try not use it, nor any other ambiguous form of expression. Instead I try to directly express that what I am trying to say, as unambiguously as possible, although I do try to retain a human voice. If there is still ambiguity, then I have not been entirely successful. In that case, please assume good faith and read what I wrote in the most positive possible interpretation (That's why it's policy). If this is not possible, please request clarification or rewording
I kinda agree here, Kim. Using "<tags>" and afterthoughts comes across as lacking seriousness in the context of this (or any such) discussion. I know it's your style and not intended in any kind of sarcastic or snide way, but it doesn't always serve its purpose. Eusebeus (talk) 19:36, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
Well, I've learned that if you take yourself or others too seriously, you're basically not going to be very effective in life. If this is going to be an institution where people can't laugh and play, I don't want to be part of it :-P
Note that the operative word is too seriously. Just because we're having fun, doesn't mean that we don't have a duty to do a good job, of course.
So if I don't get to use creative speech anymore... what else is still fun around here? And how will that fun help to either build an encyclopedia or document its workings? --Kim Bruning (talk) 21:54, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Enforcement policy -> Conduct policy

Please see WT:LOP#Quick thought. - Dank (push to talk) 20:29, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

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