Talk:Chancellor of Germany

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Contents 1 Naming the German state 2 Deletion 3 Accuracy 4 Hang On 2 5 New structure 6 Is the Chancellor a Minister?

[edit] Naming the German state

Small things can cause a lot of problems when searching for the good expression. The German state I am a citizen of was founded in 1867, see North German Federation. It continued in 1949 under a new name with a new constition (according to Bundesverfassungsgericht 1973). I hope I have found a suitable description now.--Ziko (talk) 13:47, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Deletion

The user who put this page up for deletion did so in response to a debate concerning whether or not the Chancellor of Germany article should be split into a Chancellor of Germany (German Reich) and Chancellor of Germany (Federal Republic) articles. The articles were split- rather unilaterally indeed but a strong support for the split has shown itself- aswell as opposition. Either way this article should continue to exist- as a merge of the German Reich/Federal Republic articles or as a disambiguation page between the two. There is absolutely no need for this page to be deleted. Gavin (talk) 00:10, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

You have misunderstood, it's not a question of permanently deleting this article. The article history of the original article (located at Chancellor of Germany) was moved to Chancellor of Germany (Federal Republic). This disambiguation page makes it impossible to move the article history back, which is necessary for license reasons. One cannot simply "merge" the articles Chancellor of Germany (Federal Republic) and Chancellor of Germany (German Reich) - which isn't actually a merge, but the two articles with content from this article.

The article had been located at this title for 6,5 years and was moved after a discussion involving only two people. There is currently absolutely no consensus to split the article, and the article ought to be moved back to its stable title awaiting further discussion/consensus on what to do.

Also, the article Chancellor of Germany (German Reich) is a copyright violation (a violation of the GFDL licence), as a cut and paste move of parts of this article. The deletion of this disambiguation page, so the old article history can be moved back here, is necessary to fix that problem too. UweBayern (talk) 00:25, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

I see that, but again it is not necessary- especially not at this point in time- there is no consensus to revert the current format back to the one you propose ergo, this request is premature. The fact is the split happened and much work has gone into fixing redirects etc. Do you really want to revert that just so that possibly later we might decide to maintain the split? Why not maintain the split? It is going to happen anyway when the articles are expanded. There are also the factual arguments that the Chancellors of the Reich are not the same as the Chancellors of the Federal Republic. Oh and it is not a copyright violation. Gavin (talk) 00:31, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

There should be a consensus to split the article, not to maintain status quo of the last 6,5 years. As I pointed out at the other talk page, a split into one page on Chancellors of everything from the German Empire and the Weimar Republic to Nazi Germany, and one on the Chancellors of postwar Germany, doesn't make any sense. We've went through all that half a dozen times already. UweBayern (talk) 00:35, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

It seems thought that multiple users disagree with you and have all r/v'd your're changes. However you were determined to push through your idea of how the article should be, breaking the 3/RR in the process. Fact is, the split has happened, it was not done with a sizeable consensus but it was not opposed either- for a long time. It is the status quo, let us discuss a merge rather than a merge to be split. Gavin (talk) 00:56, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

??? UweBayern (talk) 00:59, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

I put an edit comment into Chancellor of Germany (German Reich) addressing the history. I think that satisfies WP:SPLIT mostly, although it might not be enough for other interpretations of the GFDL. Further moves should go through WP:RM. Kusma (talk) 12:52, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Accuracy

As for the accuracy, this article ignore the initial office of Chancellor (Bundeskanzler) of the North German Confederation. The history of the Chancellorship cannot be split into "German Reich" and Federal Republic only. UweBayern (talk) 00:27, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Indeed not, however that does not make the disambiguation inaccurate. It makes the North German Confederation Chancellor article inaccurate. Gavin (talk) 00:31, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

If things should be added, it is rather the Archchancellor of the Holy Roman Empire. Kusma (talk) 12:55, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Hang On 2

An admin has already reviewed the case for speedy deletion and called it- premature. Gavin (talk) 01:43, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

[edit] New structure

This article is now turned from a disambiguation page (which reminds me strongly on those people who made "Deutschland" (Germany) a disambiguation page at the German Wikipedia some years ago) into a main article, with more detailed sub-articles on the Chancellery in different eras (as there is really no sense in having a monarchy, a democratic republic and a Nazi dictatorship in the same article if the articles shall be split anyway, however a general article providing an overview is necessary):

• Chancellor of the North German Confederation (1867–1871)
• Chancellor of Germany (German Empire) (1871–1918)
• Chancellor of Germany (Weimar Republic) (1919–1933)
• Chancellor of Germany (Third Reich) (1933–1945)
• Chancellor of Germany (Federal Republic) (since 1949

UweBayern (talk) 18:27, 1 May 2009 (UTC)n

You don't give up easily, do you? Do you think if you keep trying this enough times, eventually the other contributors will give up? A very constructive attitude! --KarlFrei (talk) 19:13, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

I'm the one being constructive. It seems to me that you are describing yourself. I will of course continue to uphold encyclopedic standards and consistency. You are welcome to take part in the discussion on how to improve the articles. UweBayern (talk) 02:11, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

I think this new structure is good. Though, one might be able to argue that articles which cannot stand alone should be reorganised into a single article...clearly the Federal Republic article stands alone...but the other offices do not, I recommend we merge these stubs into one article until they can be expanded upon. Gavin (talk) 10:49, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

Also, I think UweBayern is onto a winner with this layout. His methods are a little interesting, but this time I think its turned out good. Gavin (talk) 10:51, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

The articles are not exactly stubs, but I'm planning to expand them in the near future. UweBayern (talk) 18:35, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

@Uwe:

What is your article dealing with?

1. The history of the head of governments of the several German states?
2. The history of the term "chancellor" in Germany?

--Abe Lincoln (talk) 17:29, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

Your premise is false. There were not "several German states". The article is dealing with the office of head of government (mostly known as the Chancellor of Germany in English, except for some brief periods, like the revolutionary period after WWI) in the nation-state of Germany, which has legally been the same state all the time (legally (in terms of German constitutional law and international law), it was founded as the North German Confederation in 1867 and continues to exist to this date[1]). It's a general article for the office of head of government in that very same state since its foundation, with detailed articles on the office in different periods (I will expand some of these articles in the future). The origin (pre-1867 use) of the title is briefly addressed in the historical overview. UweBayern (talk) 18:28, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

Ignoring all other conversation, it think it is completely unnecessary to have five articles on the same thing. Really, if I were a random reader wanting to have a list of German Chancellors, I would want them all together in the same place, not split up so I'll have to go to five different pages to get what I want. I find it especially bad that they are only 2, 5, 4, 3, and 15 kilobytes long! Even if you could add a fair amount of more information, that's still way too short. It's rediculous to have a whole article for the Confederation when there was only Bismarck!! Plus, I think that this could be WP:FL worthy if it weren't so short. I think the best thing to do is too keep all the related information together in one place, not spread out to five. If you think that the multiple names are still too different, then how about two: 1867 to 1945, and the Federal Republic 1949 to present? Reywas92^Talk 20:31, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

In response to Reywas, we used to have the articles split between the Reich and the Federal Republic (as you suggest at the end of your contribution) however Bayern has been so offended by that solution that he pops up now and then to introduce a new change to the articles. Are you moving Reywas that we restore the German Reich and Federal Republic- two article plus disambiguation split? If you are, then I support that move. Gavin (talk) 22:49, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

We used to have one article, that was the stable solution for 6,5 years until someone split the article into two a few months ago. The split into two failed to gain consensus. The solution with having a main article with detailed sub-articles is a compromise. I do, in any case, believe it's much more reader-friendly to have an article instead of a disambiguation page at Chancellor of Germany, providing a general overview.

Personally, I also believe one article, like we used to have, would be fine. However, if we are to split the original article based on how different the office was in different eras, we cannot split it into two because it doesn't make sense having a monarchy, a democracy and a dictatorship in the same article if we accept the argument for splitting the article in the first place – Germany during the Weimar Republic, as a liberal democracy, is way more similar to present-day Germany than to Imperial or Nazi Germany.

I agree with you when it comes to the lists of chancellors. I suggest the chancellors are moved from the articles on the office to a separate List of German chancellors – this seems to be the preferred solution elsewhere on Wikipedia (POTUS, List of heads of government of Russia - note the very different titles and political regimes, btw.). UweBayern (talk) 00:10, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

We just shouldn't have five articles for it. Two pages with a dab could work, but the offices are still essentially the same. It would be fine to have one page mainly for the history of the office and another for the list (without dab), like other countries, though that isn't necessary. Since there is not too much information yet, a single article would still only be 27kb long, not even requiring a split. When it's lenghthened, as UweBayern has said he'll get to, then a split will be necessary. Basically, I want a single article/list with all the related information together unless we absolutely have to have two. Reywas92^Talk 01:47, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

I don't have a problem with merging the other articles (German Empire, North German Confederation) with this article again. How about, for the time being, having one main article Chancellor of Germany, one sub-article on the chancellory in the Federal Republic (the most lenghty of the sub-articles) and one list of Chancellors? (the list also could be included in this article, but it seems to be the usual practice to have lists in separate articles and I do believe the list can be a stand-alone article). The problem arose because someone wanted a separate article for the chancellory in the Federal Republic and made Chancellor of Germany a disambigution page, a solution with no precedent at Wikipedia that is extremely unfriendly to the reader as well as ahistorical. UweBayern (talk) 13:15, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

Do you have just one reference that a historian considers Angela Merkel holding the same office that Hitler and Bismarck did? A vast majority of the German population considers these offices to be different offices (and btw would consider mixing this up as an insult against the current Chancellors), and I never heard of a German or British or American historian who would oppose to this. See also here. --Abe Lincoln (talk) 07:30, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

We've been through all this already. I don't think you'll be able to find a single historian disputing that Chancellor Bismarck and Chancellor Merkel were heads of government of Germany. We have already established that it is the same state, but even with very siginificant changes (more significant than in Germany), there is a clear precedent at Wikipedia to cover them in the same article, because they are all heads of government of the same country. That is the reader-friendly solution. UweBayern (talk) 13:21, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

I have gone back to my very original position. To support the ONE Chancellor of Germany article which deals with all Heads of Government of Germany. As it was before the split. Gavin (talk) 00:25, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

I'm happy to hear that, although I wouldn't have a problem with having Chancellor of Germany (Federal Republic) as an in-depth article with more details and legal technicalities of the office since 1949 (in its present state, the article is maybe too short to be a separate article, though). Do you suggest the list of chancellors should be included in the main article or in a separate list? List of Chancellors of Germany is modelled after similar lists for other countries (List of Prime Ministers of the United Kingdom, List of heads of government of Russia, List of Prime Ministers of France and so forth). UweBayern (talk) 17:16, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

I think the Chancellor of Germany and List of Chancellors of Germany should remain separate. As the former article becomes larger it would become unwieldy to also include a List of Chancellors. As for the Federal Republic article, I believe that it does have the material to be a stand alone article, summarised in the Chancellor of Germany article. Technically all of the offices could be standalone articles if there was substantial material in them, as yet that is only the case with the Federal Republic article. Gavin (talk) 19:44, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Is the Chancellor a Minister?

According to the article: "Due to the title, but also due to the fact that the Chancellor is the only cabinet member elected by the parliament, the Chancellor is not considered to be a minister"

It is correct that the title Chancellor was originally chosen because the Chancellor was not a Minister (unlike the Prime Ministers of the federal states, like Prussia). But this had nothing to do with being elected by Parliament or not.

I didn't find any sources confirming that the Chancellor today is not considered a minister. Obviously, the title "minister" is not used, but the German federal government has, since the Weimar Republic, been considered a government in the proper sense (and the other members of the government have been known as (federal) ministers and not secretaries of state, like in the German Empire), and as head of that government, I believe the Chancellor can be considered a minister in the broad sense. The title Chancellor has been used after 1919 mostly because of its tradition, and I find it hard to believe it's used after 1919 to imply that the Chancellor is subordinate to "ministers" or something else than "proper" ministers. UweBayern (talk) 18:15, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

It is because the Basic Law says: The government consists of the Chancellor and the ministers. He is, by the way, not the head of a ministry (although there are sometimes ministers who are not, too). But it may not be necessary to have this information at this prominent place, inded.--Ziko (talk) 21:57, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Yes, I think it's better to deal with this question somewhere below. I'm still not sure if "The government consists of the Chancellor and the ministers" is actually meant to indicate that the Chancellor is not at minister-level, as was the case at least before 1919. It's only natural to refer to the cabinet as the Chancellor and the ministers because that's their titles, it doesn't necessarily have to imply anything as far as this question is concerned (whether the Chancellor is a minister-level position like the Prime Ministers of the states or the rest of the federal cabinet). UweBayern (talk) 03:09, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Hopefully, things become much more clear if we use the word minister-level. The Chancellor before 1919 was not a minister-level position, Germany didn't have any minister-level positions at the federal level. With the Weimar Constitution, Germany got a federal government with federal ministers, and I would assume the Chancellor as well could from then on be described as a minister-level position (albeit not with the title minister). UweBayern (talk) 03:19, 13 May 2009 (UTC)